Aquaria

[hhallahh]

For the uninitiated, Aquaria is an underwater Metroidvania-style action-adventure game which features expansive environments, smooth non-linear gameplay, lots of secrets and powerups... well, I'll just link its website, which includes a demo version:

http://www.bit-blot.com/aquaria/

Also, a gameplay video (which originally enticed me into playing) can be found here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G40cXjcz-9c

Anyways, enough plugging, down to business.

As people know, Metroidvania games (Metroid, Castlevania, Cave Story, etc.) make great speedruns. Aquaria will probably be no exception. Though it doesn't seem to have many sequence breaks, the open-ended style still lends itself to complex and immersive runs. There have been discussions on speedrunning Aquaria since its release (see http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=553.0 , a thread on the official forums), with some nice attempts being made (as far as I can tell), but no full runs have been recorded thus far and I want to open the topic up to the SDA community to see if anyone would be interested in taking a real shot at it. I'm thinking of maybe trying myself, but I honestly don't have the focus to do a real run, I think. Nevertheless, I've laid out the groundwork for what possible runs might look like in a couple posts:

Bumping this thread because some really should record a full speedrun. It could probably get accepted to sites like SDA, I imagine, which would bring publicity to the game.

To outline the basics, a game like Aquaria could support several different types of speedruns:

-- Fastest completion with any ending
-- Fastest completion with best ending
-- Low % runs
-- 100% runs

afaik the first and the third would actually be the same, since there are no major sequence breaks in the game (hmm.. there should be!) and if there were they probably wouldn't add to the final time. The second would just be the first with a few extra detours that would require the acquisition of Spirit form (not sure about Fish form), and would probably not be as interesting as the first or fourth runs, which for all intents and purposes should be what people focus on.

A good any-% run would probably entail:

-- No extras such as various armors (jelly armor..) or pets or health upgrades. Detours for Spicy / Volcano rolls might be acceptable, since they speed up boss fights.
-- Becoming really really good at bouncing off the walls to travel. It looks silly but it's a huge time-saver.
-- IDEALLY one would be able to navigate the Abyss without Sun form (right?) This isn't reasonable to expect, but it would save a lot of time.
-- I think people have already got the right idea in terms of route: After energy form, go Beast -> Sun -> Nature. Really, the only real choice in route planning is when to go for Nature form, and it seems most logical to do it after you get the turtle by Mithalas. Beast -> Nature -> Sun wouldn't be much worse, though, and if I understand correctly that it's possible to climb up the side of the Sun Temple using Nature Form, it might actually save some time.

Anyways, yea, I'd love to see a real run done according to SDA rules, there's a slight possibility that I might try one myself. But if people are getting to the last boss in just over an hour, that's pretty awesome and deserves a full recording.

-----

In any case, looking things over, going Beast -> Nature -> Sun wouldn't take any more time than Beast -> Sun -> Nature, barring the possibility that one of them would take an extra turtle trip (I'm not sure which, though.) I'm not sure if using Nature form to climb the left side of the Sun temple would save any time, maybe there's someone way better than me at fast briarhopping though. I'd like for it to be possible just to make the run more interesting, though. In any case, a segmented route would probably go something like:

1: Start to song cave to saving before the "boss" that gives you Energy form
2: Energy temple up to the save before the boss
3: Leave energy temple, go through open waters and Mithalas to the save point outside the cathedral
4: Mithalas cathedral to the savepoint at the beginning of the area with all the currents
5: Leave Mithalas (get beast form), pick up the ancient turtle near it, head to the savepoint before the Kelp Forest boss, getting the Kelp Forest turtle along the way.
6: Get Nature form, take the bulb to the turtle, then the turtle back to outside Mithalas, head up to the Veil, get Li and save at the first Sun Temple crystal
7: Either climb the left side of the Sun Temple to the boss or do it normally (possibly saving before the boss if doing normally, if so this would make an 8th segment, but let's assume we don't..), get Sun Form, leave through the exit in the boss' room, take the nearby turtle back to outside Mithalas, save somewhere on the way to the Abyss.
8: I'm not sure which route is fastest through the Abyss to the Sunken City, but suffice to say one should figure it out and do it, go through the Sunken City, save before the Golem Boss.
9+: Save as few times as possible throughout The Body (the crystal is kinda out of the way), but realistically it'd be hard not to have to do it a couple times. Definitely save before the final gauntlet, after getting Li back.
10: From getting Li back to the save before the final boss.
11: Final boss.

Something like that sounds about right.

Regardless, I hope that there are some people here who might already be familiar with the game or would be enticed to try it via my pointing it out, in which case a run's logistics could be discussed here. I'm not sure if an Aquaria run would be accepted to SDA (might be hard to find a verifier..), but it certainly should be interesting enough... and hopefully it would push a few more copies of an awesome indie game.

I'll try to entertain any discussion of the game that arises, if no one's interested I might take the initiative for a run anyways... but I just wanted to put this out there for people who enjoy these games.

[gia]

Already released? cool. Btw, you could get him interested to run it:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1187622974;start=0

[hhallahh]

Thanks for the lead, I notice he actually has an Aquaria video on his Youtube account. Hopefully he'll see this! D: If not I'll bother him.

[tjp7154]

Even though I have a video, I'm a LONG ways off to being good at the game.  I haven't finished the game, yet, and I'm not very skillful.

That video on YouTube was in response to a glitch that was posted in the Bit-Blot forums without a video.

Like I said, it's a bit too early for me to even consider it...s

[Enhasa]

Wow, I didn't even know this ever got released. I was kinda interested in it a long time ago, but any of that went away because they took so long. And also I get the impression it's not the kind of game I would like.

I checked the youtube vid, but it doesn't really tell much. Could anyone describe the game better? I'm afraid it will be something like a point-and-click Eternal Daughter without the difficulty (which was the only thing I liked). The graphics look great though and at least it looks like the main character swims around really fast (swimming slow is a common pitfall for underwater games).

[Glamador]

AB-SO-LUTE-LY NOT an Eternal Daughter without the difficulty.  It's best described as SotN meets Super Metroid meets Ecco.  It's a VERY metroidvania game based heavily on exploration and collection.  It is not an easy game, not as hard as Eternal Daughter, but definitely not easy.  It's very artsy and engaging, and it draws you into it's world.  It's got a great and complex storyline which the developers are happy to expand on in forum discussions as well.  Overall, for 30 bucks, it's the best purchase I made in 2007 (for the price, i got more than 18 hours of good gameplay).  The run, which has been attempted by a member of the bit-blot forums, took an hour or so, but he wasn't doing it officially.  So we thought we'd make a post here, in the hopes that someone professional would pick up on it.

I tried to get RaneOfSOTN into it...but he didn't get into it like I did.  He's better at speed than I am.

[Enhasa]

Well by Eternal Daughter I mostly meant the Metroidvania aspect. But also the design, environment, dialogue, all that.

Yeah, I was actually worried about it being too exploration and collection-heavy for me. I'm not the biggest fan of the Metroidvania genre in general (I wish Castlevania would go back to the old formula).

I dunno, it seems really shallow, but I would be more inclined to try this if it was free. I know there's a demo, but I don't want to mess with a non-full version. It's not that I would really mind being down $30, it's that there are a ton more people in the indie/doujin community (and speedrunner bounties for that matter) I would rather give $30 to first. I am definitely not against people making money, but as soon as you charge, the threshold for caring goes up, and I don't try out every commercial game that I'm half interested in.

In this genre, I would pay full price for some Nifflas games (Within a Deep Forest, Operator Status, Knytt Stories) and also Cave Story, so I feel disinclined to give someone I feel is less deserving my money (based on Eternal Daughter and that Jack Thompson parody game), before I have fully experienced the game and decided it was worth it. A chicken and egg situation, I know.


Edit: of course, the ironic good side of this is unlike all those other games, Aquaria can actually get a run up on SDA (thanks to Ambrosia publishing the Mac port).

[Glamador]

I'm confused, can independent games not get runs on SDA?  And anyway, you're fears sound kind of well...kind of like excuses.  And really, I think that Aquaria is fully up to the challenge.  That "raising your standards" crap is wasted on a game you havn't even played.  Also, the demo fully covers through the first 3 areas, up to 2 bosses (1 optional), and all saves are fully transferable to the full version, if purchased.

But of course, if you don't LIKE metroidvania type games, well then I doubt you'd like this.  The wierd thing is...I really thought Rane would like it, I mean he's got SotN in his name.  Bottom line, the game is worth the money.

[Enhasa]

Well, I kinda feel bad about clogging up this thread with talk about the game itself instead of actual running talk, but since there's none of that going on here yet, I guess it's not too bad. This will be a long post, sorry about that.

Independent games can totally get on SDA. Independent/mainstream is a different axis from freeware/commercial. The new rules are more clear about this. They haven't changed, but there was more handwaving before. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure why the "no freeware" rule is necessary, but there isn't too much of a clamor to change. I think it's to establish a clear boundary and prevent people from running things like Flash games. Just like some other legacy rules like "real name required" I wouldn't mind a change, but since things seem to be fine now, we're leaving it.

What's the difference between fears and excuses? I don't like mouse control, backtracking, item collection... wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable not to be excited about a game featuring those? I already acknowledged how silly and catch-22 the "not wanting to buy the game to see if it's worth $30" idea is. I didn't say a single bad thing about the game (I mean, I haven't even played it!) and I never said anything that could be interpreted as "raising standards," so no need to defend the game.

Note I am not talking about whether the game is "worth" $30. I'm sure it is to most people (although of course monetary value is a terrible measure since it varies from person to person). I played hundreds of independent games last year, and definitely if I had to pay $30 for each of them, that would not be the case. So being less interested in a paid game is largely a practical matter.

You also have to understand that like most things, the decision by a developer to charge is a natural, conscious tradeoff. The positive is that you will make money, the negative is that less people will play your game. It just comes with the territory. You charge whatever you think would be best for you, which for many indie developers is zero.

Ok, good info, I'll play the demo then. Really the only possible outcome from the start.


As an aside, how do you know Rane? Are you his friend IRL who likes Warsong, that he's talked about before? At any rate, welcome.

About SOTN, there's a lot of people who like it, who don't really care for the genre as a whole for some reason. Probably has to do with the graphics and music and atmosphere. I'm like that myself. I like the game (don't love it or anything though), but I think it's just because of the music.

I think the best litmus test would be something like Seiklus. I can't imagine anyone who likes that game, who would hate Metroidvania in general. Personally, I hate Seiklus.

[RaneofSOTN]

He actually tried to get me into it by sitting me down at his labtop and then said "PLAY!" So i did. Unfortunately I can't just be told to "PLAY!" a game. If I wanna play it i'll play it. So after that first experience I can't really say i've ever been urged to play it (even though I have full access to it).

No Glamador is not my room mate (warsong guy). He is another friend from U of F. Anyway, I guess I should give the game another shot, the songs were ok and everything I just didn't like the idea of being lurched over as I play a game to see how I'd react to it. I like general Castleroids or Metroidvanias, but i can't really say much if I'm forced to play them.


Anyway from about the few hours i got into the actual game, it was pretty good. I dont know this Eternal Daughter game you mention but at least this one has a few different things in it. I didn't see a lot of backtracking from what I played. I hope you at least enjoy the demo.

As for speeding this thing, unless i get an urge to play through it once, i doubt i'll pick it up like so.

[groobo]

so...colorful...must...play...

[hhallahh]

What's the difference between fears and excuses? I don't like mouse control, backtracking, item collection... wouldn't it be perfectly reasonable not to be excited about a game featuring those? I already acknowledged how silly and catch-22 the "not wanting to buy the game to see if it's worth $30" idea is. I didn't say a single bad thing about the game (I mean, I haven't even played it!) and I never said anything that could be interpreted as "raising standards," so no need to defend the game.

Sounds like it's not the game for you, then. No worries.

Independent games can totally get on SDA. Independent/mainstream is a different axis from freeware/commercial. The new rules are more clear about this. They haven't changed, but there was more handwaving before. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure why the "no freeware" rule is necessary, but there isn't too much of a clamor to change. I think it's to establish a clear boundary and prevent people from running things like Flash games. Just like some other legacy rules like "real name required" I wouldn't mind a change, but since things seem to be fine now, we're leaving it.

Personally, I think the "no freeware" rule is kinda dumb. I can understand why they might want to avoid really obscure games, but something like Cave Story or even Flash Portal would be so well-known and make cool runs that I do think they'd deserve to be hosted here over random console flop game #248. That's just me, though. I do hope that Aquaria could get hosted.

And thanks for getting back, tjp7154. I hope you enjoy the game, it's a ton better than Eternal Daughter and would make a great run, like I said in the OP.

[groobo]

I used the opportunity that my hdd broke down on me (again) and made a fun run for this game. The time was 1:18 (1:10 save before last boss, rest was timed using a stopwatch). Route: bind -> energy -> nature -> sun -> dual -> end. So basically no beast, no fish, no spirit, no li, no sunken city. Sequence breaks ftw.

[Enhasa]

Personally, I think the "no freeware" rule is kinda dumb. I can understand why they might want to avoid really obscure games, but something like Cave Story or even Flash Portal would be so well-known and make cool runs that I do think they'd deserve to be hosted here over random console flop game #248. That's just me, though. I do hope that Aquaria could get hosted.

You can discuss it in the "new rules" thread in the site suggestions forum and see how many people agree. Like I said, I would be open to changing it if people care, but it seems they don't.

Like I said before, it's a matter of setting boundaries. Otherwise, if we allow Cave Story, then people will ask for I Wanna Be the Guy and then stuff I've never even heard of or someone will make a game and then run it.

It's not a matter of "deserving" or not. It's obvious many freely available games are superior. Hell, I think Super Demo World crushes Super Mario World, but I don't miss seeing a run of that up on SDA (just an example, forget it's a hack, imagine it's a remake). I think really the issue is: disallowing freeware runs lends some legitimacy, just like requiring real name. Whether or not I think SDA needs that, I don't really know. But certainly if we have it already, and it's not my site, it's probably a bad idea to be rash and remove some of the legitimacy.

Don't worry about Aquaria though. It does qualify for SDA.

[groobo]

For anyone who's interested, here are some shortcuts:

veil early
body early
sun temple small timesaver